Eletrical panel questions

[David Macy]

Home was built in 1988.

Observed some corrosion rust in panel that may be from humidity or from an exterior window trim leaking above exterior meter.

My questions are:  Is this type of breaker rated for 2 wires? I could not tell.

Secondly. The neutral and grounds are attached together at the ground/neutral bar.
Are the neutrals required to be on there own lug. Was this required in 1988?

Thanks

[Jay Markanich]

The ground/neutrals look okay in the top photo.  Don't know about 1988.  Looks like you have another double tap at the bottom of the top photo.   What is that black cable at the bottom of the neutral rack on the top photo?  Why is there electrical tape in there?

Second photo looks like a double tap to me!  Recommend a total evaluation by an electrician of not only breaker wiring specifically but box distribution in general.

The rust and corrosion in the top photo has migrated all the way to the bottom of the picture.  That means it is likely all the way down behind the breakers in the box.  That also needs professional evaluation.  Were the service conductors greased at the connection on the top?  Hope so, there is a lot of moisture in there.

One of the poor exterior flashing jobs Carl B. mentions in his site?  It seems that box is getting wet...

[David Macy]

The other double tap was the low voltage transformer. I do not call those out.

Not sure why the electrical tape was in the panel. Home Owner did some wiring and may have placed in panel.

The moisture was a big concern and I called it out.

I thought the neutrals could only have one termination per screw.

[Jay Markanich]

I didn't notice that.  I was looking at the arrow.  Yes, there are two on one screw in the neutral rack and that is incorrect.  Homeowner job likely...

[Jay Markanich]

Are you on?  We can chat...

My daughter is watching cartoons.

[David Macy]

I was on before.

I asked Dominic to get a chat going.

What cartoons!!

I like watching cartoons with my 8 year old.

Thanks for the response.

[Jay Markanich]

I am looking at the first and wondering why the one cable is green.  Does the label say what it services?  All you have to do it write up the box, but I am curious.

[Steven Turetsky]

Hi Guys,

If the breaker is rated for 2 wires it should say so somewhere.

2 neutrals under 1 terminal is wrong. 2 grounds is ok. A neutral and a ground is wrong.

[John Adrian Sopher]

One of the things I also noticed is the ground and the neutral on the same bar.  I have questioned this practice before.  I was taught to call this out as they should be on separate bars.  But I see it very often around here.  In trying to find out more about this technique, I have found its not against code, but it is considered poor practice.  I still call it out, and say its poor practice.  What are your thoughts to this?

[Steven Turetsky]

Good morning John,

A neutral and a ground on the same bar is ok if it is at the first point of entry/shut off. So whether that is disconnect or a main breaker panel, it's ok. One of the things that should be checked is if the neutral bar and ground bar are bonded at the first point/panel. Beyond that first point, the n bar and g bar should be isolated and independant of each other.

[John Adrian Sopher]

Hey Steve how are things going? 

I'm not sure if I fully follow what you said.  I know on a sub panel its not allowed at all.  I also know on a main panel there should be a bonding bar to tie the ground and neutral bars together.  In reading around on the web, I find that it is okay to mix the ground and neutral wires within these two bars within the main panel, but in the electrical world its considered sloppy work.  I was also taught to call it out in my inspection class.

Are you saying its okay before the the bonding bar that connects the two bus bars?  Or are you saying its okay as long as its the main panel?

Here are a couple of pics of a main panel in a brand new house I did not too long ago.  I called out the neutral and ground wires on the same bar and explained that its not against code, but was considered sloppy electrical work. 

[David Macy]

I post the following illustration in my clients report.

John the pics you posted look fine.

On the one I posted the neutral was attached with a ground. 

[John Adrian Sopher]

I post the following illustration in my clients report.

John the pics you posted look fine.

On the one I posted the neutral was attached with a ground. 

Yes I was just trying to bring to light a question I have had in the past.  I guess I'm looking to see what other inspectors say about this because there's still a little inkling of a question in my mind about this.  If you look at the pic you just posted, all grounds are on one bar and all neutrals are on the other.  And the two bars should be bonded together with a bonding bar. 

What I have found when trying to research this,  mixing the grounds and neutrals isn't against code, its just sloppy.  As an inspector, I try to point things like this out because there are many building, plumbing electrical, etc. techniques that meet code but not necessarily the best practice to use in that particular field. 

In short, its cutting corners!  Oh and I like that pic, I may have to borrow it from ya.  

[Steven Turetsky]

What I am saying is that at the very first disconnect N & G go together. If it happens to be in a breaker panel, then so be it. If it's within a main disconnect box, then that is where the bonding takes place. Past that initial point, they are kept separate.

What is the difference between a "main" and a "sub"? Some folks say there is no such thing as a sub panel... or all panels are subs. It is all about the main disconnect. That is where the bonding takes place. After that everything is the same.

Regarding mixing G & N on bars in the main, It's ok to mix, so I don't write it up.