IR and investigative studies

[David Macy]

I would say I receive about 1 call a week that a client has a specific situation that would involve investigative studies and using IR to help determine the cause and solution to there problem.

Yesterday I had one on Ghosting of the wall board and the outline of the framing.

Since I have no IR camera and training I have been sending these prospective clients away.

So my questions to the trained, skilled that due investigative studies how often do you do this type of inspection and is your report specific to the area in question?  I would think this would be a good way to use the new drawing sketch feature in HIP.

[Bill Warner]

This type work makes up the bulk of our jobs.  Yes, the report is specific to the problem and area in question, but also depends on the prescribed scope.
The problem runs into what prospective clients are willing to pay for this time saving and non-destructive work.  Serious clients who understand the benefits don't have issue with the fees.  Clients searching for an easy and inexpensive solution to their often complex issues are another story.  It takes a bit more of "grooming" so to speak to win them over.

For instance, 3 weeks ago I bid a large commercial building project that has ongoing water intrusion concerns.  The contractor who has taken over repairs for the new building owner explained to me that many contractors have thrown repairs at the building, but nothing is working.  They now want to see if I can assist them in their repair efforts.  After scoping the building, I submitted 2 proposals. 1 for the immediate concern area, and one for an entire building scan.  They were taken aback by the fees I proposed. They expected my services to be a cheap quick solution.  They hesitantly said they would submit the proposals to the new building owner.  Yesterday, I received the "go ahead" for an initial partial scan, and if I confirm the moisture intrusion then the second whole building scan proposal will be accepted.

Regarding your ghosting call... IR would simply confirm what is already visible to the naked eye which is known as thermal bridging.

Don't doubt your capabilities... but do understand your limitations.

There are many jobs I have also turned away do to potential clients misunderstanding of thermal imaging.

[Cameron Anderson]

That's a great question Dave. I have wanted to expand business into this area and take on exactly the type of IR jobs Bill is mentioning.  I would also liketo offer it as an added service for a fee during an inspection. Do you, Bill, or other guys like David Anderson who use IR include that in your residential inspections as a regular part or as a separate service?  Or are you saying most of your jobs are just to investigate and report on one component or problem for a fee?

[Bill Warner]

Hi Cameron,
When performing a residential home inspection, I incorporate IR into my services. I charge more than most of the competition but I don't have to up sell a separate service... just my service.  I believe Mr. Andersen sells it as an add on.  So it really depends on how you want to approach it with your business model.  That being said, the majority of my business model has now morphed into strictly thermal imaging inspections rather than residential home inspections.  That has been my goal for quite some time.  Mr. Andersen is doing the same I believe. 
I urge, urge, urge you (and anyone else) to pursue quality education and equipment if seriously considering entering the IR field. It's necessary for the complexities, difficulties and various aspects experienced in residential and commercial applications.

[Cameron Anderson]

I urge, urge, urge you (and anyone else) to pursue quality education and equipment if seriously considering entering the IR field. It's necessary for the complexities, difficulties and various aspects experienced in residential and commercial applications.

Absolutely. This would be a big step and a major finacial investment for my company. I've been reserching it off and on for the past year but I'm reaching a point where I need to take the first step and I think the education would be a good place to start. The question is, where and from whom?

[Bill Warner]

In my opinion, you can't go wrong with Jim Seffrin and Infraspection Institute.  They provide every aspect of IR training from Level I to III, and individual courses as well including electrical, building science, and they even have a great course specifically designed for home inspectors.  You can attend their courses in person or take their distance learning packets as well.  They are vendor neutral and don't focus on camera brands, but simply good education. I tell everyone looking to enter the field to take a course (preferably level I) prior to making any equipment purchase so you truly understand the technology and science and what all the facts and figures mean that the vendors give you in their marketing brochures.  This way you make an educated purchase decision rather than one based on some "creative" marketing or price alone.
FYI... Don't get conned by some of the lesser education providers advertising "cheapest camera prices for only our students...".  When it comes time to make the purchase, those deals (and better ones) are available through other means and sources. 

[David A. Andersen]

Mr. Warner has pretty much covered it top to bottom, and you can take that to the bank!

I initially used thermal imaging to reduce my liability in my home inspections. Just like the first time I purchased a moisture meter after a client did not heed my recommendations to remove, repair and reset a toilet that was located above the crawlspace with 13 inches of water below. I didn't crawl through the water (for safety reasons) to inspect below the toilet. The client felt that they were entitled for me to pay for their repair. As I didn't have a high dollar moisture meter, I went out and bought the best there was. I no longer "recommend" further investigation by someone else because of something that I "suspect". When I talk about it in my report its "a matter of fact"! Thermal imaging documents those facts.

Once I became experienced and educated I continued to use the camera on every inspection and put at least one thermal image in every home inspection report for marketing purposes to educate the public. If it was a more complex issue, I began charging for this as an additional part of the inspection.

With time, I evolved into Mr. Warner's business plan and do not do "basic home inspections" anymore (only to support those who have referred my services over the years). In most cases they involve thermal imaging and other inspections anyway. Actually, the last plain old home inspection that I can recall doing was last Thanksgiving.

As far as education is concerned, I will endorse Jim Seffrin as he has supported me over the years with technical support over the telephone and I have not yet taken a single course through Infraspection Institute.

Do not get wrapped up in the " Certification" process. Basically level I through level III is a continuation and evolves into more complex scenarios of the same process and eventually prepare you for a supervisory role for a thermal imaging program (in this case it your home inspection company). Once you start with one training company, I recommend you stick with them so you're not jumping all around. This is why I stuck with Flir ITC.

Should you consider ITC, it is also a vendor neutral training facility even though it is a subsidy of Flir. They support all manufactured equipment and applications.

ITC had a specific building science course for many years which compressed level I information into the course (but you're not level I certified). A good friend of mine who was the primary instructor told me last week that this course has been modified and added onto a level I certification course so it gives you the level I as well as the building science application. He stated that he sat in on one of these courses but at this point was not completely satisfied with the course.

As for equipment, all cameras have a specific purpose. Just because it's a thermal imaging camera does not mean it is designed for building applications. Contrary to popular belief, building thermography requires the best equipment you can afford because the majority of your scans are "indirect readings". This requires a more sensitive camera to achieve your purposes. We produce reports, and documentation with lousy resolution does not go well in your final product. Electricians, plumbers, roofers etc. only want to find the anomaly, they don't care about documenting it so they can get away with fuzzy blobs on the screen! If you buy a low-end camera, you will rapidly grow out of it as the need arises and you will end up losing your initial investment in the upgrade. No one wants a used camera for what you paid for it. You'll be lucky to get $1000 from a $4000 camera after one year. Technology improvements drives the value of your camera down very rapidly. The more you learn about thermography, the faster you become disenchanted with the equipment you own.

Marketing your thermal business should be your primary objective. Owning a camera does not make the phone ring. Potential clients do not understand thermal imaging for the most part. Simply offering thermal imaging with a home inspection does not justify the added expense in your client's perspective unless they understand the thermal imaging process or have a concern about a specific issue in the home they're looking at.

In your initial interview with the potential client, you must determine their concerns (many times the client has never considered any concerns). If they do not have a concern, such as "this house had a roof leak and I'm told it is repaired but I want to be sure that it's not" you will never upsell this service.

So be prepared to do a lot of "training" with your customers when they call.

Residential thermal applications are probably the lowest paying thermal job out there. However, there are generally two people that are going to live in that house that work someplace that can use your services and are willing to pay a significant fee to solve their problem. It beats cold call marketing!

[Cameron Anderson]

Residential thermal applications are probably the lowest paying thermal job out there. However, there are generally two people that are going to live in that house that work someplace that can use your services and are willing to pay a significant fee to solve their problem. It beats cold call marketing!

Now that's some good foresight marketing!  Thanks guys for all that info, it's priceless. I'll have to look into those education providers, it would be a plus if some of the courses could be used for Illinois continuing ed.  I'm trying to be very purposeful about how i take this on, it's only the second major change I have really ever made to my business services(HIP would be the first!). Thanks again for the well thought out advice.

[Dan Musielski]

Cameron..too bad we're so far apart. I've been thinking through the same game plan.  There is actually and architect in town who started doing commercial IR work about a year ago.  I'll see how that aspect of his business is progressing

[David Macy]

Great info from the pros, Dave A and Bill W know there Building Science.

Thanks!!

[Bruce Bowden]

There is a discussion of this on Nachi too, with an interesting twist.?  The twist being that if you pull your IR camera out, even once, and you miss something anywhere else in the home (even if its hidden), you could have just increased your liability exposure.?  Good Point.? 

I use mine as a tool, but make very clear that the client has not paid for a full house thermal scan.?  This is a check-off in my inspection agreement, and documented where-ever the camera image shows up in the report.? 

If I'm taking on more liability due to using the IR camera as a tool, then I also want to be paid for it, & then also do the full-house scan, BUT- with a 50% adder to the cost of the inspection.? IR is not a commodity or marketing give-away, at least in my area.

The value of the training, skills, camera, increased liability, and work-> have to get paid for.

Just consider what a lawyer can do, if you have or advertise IR and then missed (or misreported) a hidden issue ANYWHERE in the house.  The IR tool suddenly takes you beyond "what's visibly observable".... It should be a big consideration as we proceed with it.

[Bill Warner]

And there is some sound advice over there from some very qualified thermographers who don't have a stake in selling a quickie certification course or cheap cameras that ill prepares you for the real world of residential and commercial thermal imaging.
Certainly some things to think about...
I did an inspection last week that I knew would be reviewed by opposing attorneys. Being confident in my abilities and training helped me get the job and report completed.
I teach home inspections at a local college... one of the things I discuss on day one is for inspectors to perform their inspections and complete their reports as though an attorney is going to review it.... because it very well may be. 

[David A. Andersen]

"There is a discussion of this on Nachi too, with an interesting twist.?  The twist being that if you pull your IR camera out, even once, and you miss something anywhere else in the home (even if its hidden), you could have just increased your liability exposure.?  Good Point.? "

No. It is a bunch of B.S. that's been conjured up by someone who sits on the message board 24/7 with nothing better to do!

If trained properly, preparing a proposal which contains the scope and purpose of the inspection will clearly line out to the client what is and is not covered with the use of thermal imaging. If your client sees a water stain in the ceiling and wants to know about it and you use thermal imaging, it doesn't mean that you are responsible for every other building leak that may or may not be detectable at the time of the inspection. It doesn't even mean that you're even responsible for that specific leak! It also doesn't mean you have to identify thermal anomalies in the main electric service panel!!

Thermal imaging is not an x-ray machine that works under every condition. The conditions of testing must be present or created prior to the use of thermal imaging (thus the required education). Your contracts/proposal should specifically line out what it is you're using the camera for. Just because you take it out does not mean you will be required to perform and identify every potential thermal anomaly or exception present in the building you are working. Just because you own it, does not mean that you must use it on every home inspection following your camera purchase! This is totally a bunch of nonsense derived by people they just want to tear down a procedure that obviously puts them to a great disadvantage.

Please do not start to spread that nonsense here or in other areas.

The only liability thermal imaging creates is if you do it wrong!
If you are a "camera owner" attempting an application that you are untrained for, then yes your liability does increase because of the chances that you are "wrong"!

I see countless examples across the Internet of thermal imaging scans claiming moisture versus air infiltration that are incorrectly diagnosed because due diligence was not used to further identify the exception identified by thermal imaging.

Even when backed up with a moisture meter, you could be wrong!
In some parts of the country were high moisture conditions exist in the summer months, when air comes in contact with air-conditioned buildings, moisture is present. During the winter months when excessive humidity from the interior comes in contact with cold exterior wall components, moisture is present. Is it a water leak or an air leak resulting in water damage?

I have three investigations pending where I was called in for roofing leaks where the client spent thousands of dollars trying to locate and fix a roof leak. There was no roof leak! However, there was water present. The thermal camera does not identify anything but emitted energy. No temperature, no moisture, no mold, no termites. You can have a hot spot and a cold spot related to water intrusion at the same time and in the same thermal scan! Depending upon the circumstances of the leakage, it may show up hot or it may show up cold. Actually, I have some thermal images that are both hot and cold at the same leak!

Are you ready for thermal imaging? Ponder the following condition and formulate a hypothesis based upon thermal principles as to what you would expect to occur during a water leakage investigation.

brainteaser: if you have an active water leak in the ceiling and you add heat to the room, the anomaly will raise in temperature/fall in temperature (select one); and why?


Participation in this brainteaser does not need to be public. Respond by e-mail in my profile if you wish to discuss this critical subject off-line. I would venture to say that over 95% of thermal camera owners cannot answer this question correctly (specifically the "why")so I prefer to not discuss this publicly.

Please do not expect an immediate reply is I have a crap load of work on my plate.

[Bruce Bowden]

"If trained properly, preparing a proposal which contains the scope and purpose of the inspection will clearly line out to the client what is and is not covered with the use of thermal imaging."

Ultimately, I think this is the same point I was making, only emphasizing the CYA part. But different people market differently, and some state too much, again similar to your points.

My HI agreement (& marketing) states that full house thermal-image scan is not part of the HI  service, unless contracted for separately. In other words, I'm just using it as a tool, unless full-house imaging is purchased.  Others may not differentiate, and simply charge more, or have it as a marketing feather...&/or perhaps hype it too much.

The other point, is to make money with the camera & investment in skills training, either by higher HI charges, or by charging 4 ancillary service, & make sure expectations re. the tool vs. the ancillary service is understood.  That is the structure that makes sense for my business model, your structure may be different but works for you...

I found the discussion on Nachi to be quite helpful, so, I suppose, to each his own.

[David A. Andersen]

whatever?

I wasn't directing anything towards you.I just hope that you didn't find the liability conversation of any help because it is nonsense.

You put the question marks after your statement, I'm just responding.

[Cameron Anderson]

brainteaser: if you have an active water leak in the ceiling and you add heat to the room, the anomaly will raise in temperature/fall in temperature (select one); and why?

I would guess the warm air circulating in the room can hold more moisture and so the moisture in the stain would more rapidly evaporate into the room causing the wet stain to drop in temperature.

[David A. Andersen]

Correct, Never underestimate the power of evaporative cooling in thermal imaging!

[Chris Duphily]

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!