Inspection checklist/software and insurance - getting started

[Bob Elliott]

Bruce that is great in theory or if you are using a tablet at site.
I use general shots to help show location for my notes.

The fewer shots you take the faster to go through the pictures no doubt however extra pictures can also save you from forgetting or leaving out items in your report.

The real key may be to simply use fewer inside the report itself as mentioned already.
One of the big reasons I am hopeful for the Android version of HIP.

[Bruce Ramsey]

Bob, we all have different methods. ? I do not take any notes of any kind other than photos. ? If there is no picture, there is no defect to report. ? If there is a photo, it is either a defect or a Must Describe item. ? I follow a routine when I inspect. ? The photos are in the order I inspect. ? Reviewing my photos in order is just like going through the inspection. ? I occasionally review my photos on the camera at the end of the inspection as a recap for the client. ? Occasionally download to the laptop and tab through them with the client onsite. ? 

I am not sure how extra pictures are going to help me not forget or not leave something out. ? I take a picture of every defect as that is my only notes. ? I only take "Extra" photos if the first looks blurry, not centered in the frame, etc. ? I don't take "general" photos and then scan for missed defects. ? My goal is to only inspect the house once, while onsite.

[Bob Elliott]

Bruce if you only focus on issues how do you remember all the material comments?

My report notates if there is an exhaust fan in the bathroom for instance or floor covering comments and notations.
If you are doing a basic issues only report I understand however......

My extra shots have helped me so many times that Iv'e lost count.
Taking a shot of the thermostat at the end helps show you lowered the heat temp for instance and taking a HD video at the end not only helps make sure you remember the layout of directional comments but can save your backside if anyone claims you damaged something.
Technology is amazing today so I make full use of it.

[Bruce Ramsey]

Not sure what you mean by material comments.  The state SOP requires that home inspectors DESCRIBE a specific set of items.  I usually don't describe beyond that minimum list because I don't believe most buyers care.  I believe all they really want is someone to confirm that the house is in relatively good shape.  For those items that are not functioning, I want to focus my engeries explaining the defect in such a manner that they understand why it is a problem.  Buyers can see that there is carpet, hardwood, and vinyl flooring.  Why do they need a home inspector to tell them that unless there is a problem? 

I agree that we have different reporting thresholds and priorities.  In reviewing the sample report on your website, it seems you spend quite a bit more time and energy desribing items than I do.  Conversely my defect statements seem to offer more than your report. 

I reviewed the sample report on your website and was confused by your description of waste plumbing.  You describe it as galvanized pipe.  Then you show pictures of PVC, cast iron and galvanized pipe.  On the cover page it is listed as a ranch but there is a two story house in the picture.

[Cameron Anderson]

My method is similar to Bruce. I rely solely on the photos as my notes. That means if I didn't take a picture of it there either is no defect or I'm screwed. I have a full sized panorama of every room in the house which has at times reminded me of items I want to report on. That was more common when I first started using photos as my notes. Now it just doesn't happen as I am always disciplining myself to take a photo if anything makes me pause.  In one sense I'm doing what Bob was speaking about earlier; I take more time now doing photos than I did when I was doing notes on site. My average inspection is about 4 hours. But that time is spent doing the photos as Bruce described; I'm framing the shots very purposefully and taking multiples to get the right focus and lighting. My photo breakdown is something like this:

30-40 reference photos - room panoramas, data plates, equipment shots, exterior facade, etc.
80-120 defect photos - everything from caulking to crumbling gets a photo
5-10 hand signal photos - if the photo isn't self explanatory then I take it again using sign language in the frame

I filter through the defect shots and pick one photo for each defect. If there are multiple areas of exterior window trim which need sealed/caulked that will have one photo. The comments will direct the client to perform maintenance throughout the exterior. This general approach only becomes more specific if a related interior issue (e.g. moisture stains below a window or threshold) were to appear. Then I would get specific about location and have individual photos.  This same approach might be used on ungrounded 3-prong outlets, corrosion on pipes, etc.  Anytime the comment is going to recommend identical broad repairs or maintenance by a professional throughout a component, I don't use multiple photos of all those identical issues for the report.  I also don't do a lot of different angled photos, at this point I have a specific way of framing specific issues and I know what works. I also rarely use a flash, instead I just reflect the light from my flashlight off my hand or a nearby surface. Less hard shadows and the light is softer.

I believe David Anderson posted a topic and a sample report discussing the idea of limiting your inspection reporting to the SOP of your state law to limit liability(correct me if I'm wrong David). That was a major influence in how I have laid out my template and the finished report. By no means am I leaving defects off, but I am certainly selective in what “outside the SOP” items I am willing to include. As far as the material comments Bob mentioned, I don't do them unless the State SOP requires it. Bruce is right, the clients(and everyone else for that matter) don't care, my room reference photos have it if I need it and notating all the materials in every room is just unnecessary busywork. I also don't write a lot of details about components being present unless, again, the SOP requires it. As far as I'm concerned, Hell for home inspectors will be sitting on a hot rock proof-reading room-by-room inspection reports with exhaustive material and “component present” notes.

So that must be the reason for my lower number of photos...    Either that or I'm about to get sued out of my gourd.

 

[Bob Elliott]

Bruce sorry I mad you mad enough to compare a sample report from years ago with what you perceive as yours being better  to make a comparison as it does not represent anything being discussed here.
I imagine rather than actually describing items in material comments you have something like OK. sufficient,acceptable as comments over and over.
If that works for you than fine but please stick to subject.

In Illinois we are required to describe materials and when I do so that is my way of reporting conditions are acceptable with out need of drone like repetition.
If you actually wish to see what I report on go here....http://www.chicagolandhomeinspector.com/home-inspection-areas.html

Now if you wish to compare websites in some sort of website quality contest we can start a new thread.

Saying that somehow a client wants less information is just silly and a way to justify not putting in the time for a quality report.
These arguments have been used by Matrix report users way before this discussion ever started.

Home Inspector Pro has something called bookmarks and the fastest photo edit in the business so i am happy to include all that my clients want then some otherwise we could argue the internet has too much information also.LOL

[Cameron Anderson]

Specifically, these are the descriptions required in Illinois. Most of them are equipment specific and very little is actually finish materials on the interior or exterior.

    Exterior siding
    Roofing
    Chimney
    Garage Door to House
    Foundation
    Framing
    HVAC – types, flue, distribution
    Plumbing – technically, illinois inspectors aren't even “inspecting” the plumbing, so it's a lot of describing.
    Electrical service, panels & wiring types
    Attic Insulation
    Fireplace type

Saying that somehow a client wants less information is just silly and a way to justify not putting in the time for a quality report.

Hmmm...  let me think about that one...   I won't be judging the quality of my, or any other inspector's, finished report based on the length of the material descriptions anytime soon.  And I doubt a client, the State, ASHI, NAHI or a small claims court will either.

[Bob Elliott]

  So is this an example of your report....

Exterior siding  OK
    Roofing   ..............   no leaks
    Chimney     ............... functions
    Garage Door to House....... Yep
    Foundation................. has one
    Framing.................... has plates
    HVAC ? types, flue, distribution
    Plumbing ? technically, illinois inspectors aren't even ?inspecting? the plumbing, so it's a lot of describing.
    Electrical service, panels & wiring types
    Attic Insulation...................................batting
    Fireplace type.......................................no


 

Hmmm maybe I should change.

Contractors often defend themselves by stating"IT MEETS CODE" but there is a difference between getting by and actually caring about quality.

""I use HIP because I want the best for myself and my clients.""
Seriously if wanting to get by with minimum is your thing I hope all my competitors feel the same way you do.

[Cameron Anderson]

Yeah, that's it.  I gotta admit, that was funny.



Okay, I do think Bob has hit on something on one of his websites.  This is a great quote:

  "Dominic Marcic the renowned software designer took many..."


Is there an HIP web hosting discount if this is included? I secretly wondered if Dom had narcissistic tendencies.

[Bob Elliott]

Which site is that on?
Looks like a mis-spell.

He may take my Hippie card away if he sees that.

Cameron if you think clients have no time for detail why are you inspecting my site with so much detail? 

[Cameron Anderson]

It didn't take much inspecting to find that, I was trying to find the sample report you and Bruce were discussing.  Here it is:

http://www.chicagolandhomeinspection.com/home_inspection_report.html


I do inspect with a great amount of detail, or anal retentiveness, whichever fits.  I just don't think it is necessary to go into detail about items which are functional without defects. And describing materials outside of the SOP requirements doesn't make an inspection or the report "quality", unless you're looking to  get quoted in a "Fine Homebuilding" article.

If that's what you say it takes to make an inspection report a quality document, please, PLEASE, immediately start teaching Continuing Education classes to all my competitors.

[Bob Elliott]

Hey if you wish to perform to minimum code ,be my guest.
The Agents will pick you over me for sure and in a small market I am sure you depend on them more for business. Touche.

Seriously though if you only stick to facts then you also make no mention needing GFCI in grandfathered properties or discuss needing bathroom exhausts even if there is a window, or is opening the old single pane in January just fine in Peoria.?

How about Kitchen range hoods?
Do you note if they vent out or are ventless? After all that is not part of SOP so why bother? (right)?

If you are a stickler then on dishwashers do you insist on need for a air gap or is a high loop acceptable?
Do you suggest caulking the back splash at sinks or since it is not in SOP are you happy to not bother?

Lets put it this way...I look out for my clients best interest and most of my clients are first time home buyers that wish for detail.Now since you like my sites go read the reviews and see what they like about my reports.

[Cameron Anderson]

O Lord, why am I continuing to type...?  It's like a car wreck you just can't look away from, you know you should just drive by and forget it, but you can't.

Okay, I'm sure I'm in the pocket of all the Realtors in my little tiny market, but that's all beside the point.

What feels like a few hundred posts ago you told Bruce, “please stick to subject.”. There is a big difference between describing the materials used in constructing components in the house and calling out potential defects or future issues within those components.

   - GFCIs are a safety issue, not a material description.
   - Bathroom exhausts are a moisture control upgrade, not a material description
   - Range hood venting is a moisture control issue, not a material description.
   - A dishwasher high-loop is part of the Illinois SOP, not a material description
   - Backsplash caulking is preventative maintenance, not a material description

Sure, I would report on all of those as needed because they are defects or potential issues. But won't spend time saying, “The GFCIs are vertical GE brand, the bathroom vents are 120volt and noted, the range hood is aluminum and serviceable, dishwasher is a Hotpoint – Ser.# NS284.129, Countertop is sealed granite.” None of those are exaggerations, I've seen all kinds of notes like those in inspection reports and I just don't think they are needed.  Material descriptions about how every component is constructed are outside the SOP, unnecessary for a detailed report and ignored by clients across the USA. 

Bob, you have really good reviews and none of them praise you for your “well versed descriptions of our hardwood flooring” or “I sure am glad you mentioned the type of trusses in the attic”.  Come on man! Be proud of what your clients are proud of; they like the detailed descriptions of the issues you found. That's what saved them money and headaches.

And I'm pretty sure “touche” is what you say when someone else makes a good argument, not when your proud of your own point.  Is everyone enjoying this show?

[Bob Elliott]

Cameron,I am sure you know your stuff and do a great job for your clients also and the Agent comment was a joke by the way so lighten up.

Back to nuts and bolts here I think taking serial numbers is a great idea and many Inspectors use a service that automatically checks those numbers for recall by the way.
Imagine that the first time that you are aware of an appliance recall is when the fire marshal tells you after your house fire. http://www.appliancerecallcheck.com/

I myself spent 6 years as part of my life installing all types of appliances sold by Sears and can tell you right now that there are many that have been recalled so brand name does matter.

How about if you have a Federal Pacific panel ,does that mean anything to you?

Knowing that your home is Brick constructed vs Brick veneer is also very important to clients as it will determine how the proceed with rehab/remodeling projects.
I can go on and on however arguing for giving less information to your client as being superior to a FULL report is an argument you will not win Cameron.

Yes I know you like using that i phone for photos but it simply is not suited for detail which is where your argument is springing from.
By the way I have compared the i phone to my Android Evo and find the images are actually better on the EVO.
Optical lenses make more of a difference after 3MP and anything after 3 MP is pointless.Touche  lol

[Bruce Ramsey]

Insert Quote

Bruce sorry I made you mad enough to compare a sample report from years ago with what you perceive as yours being better ? to make a comparison as it does not represent anything being discussed here.
I imagine rather than actually describing items in material comments you have something like OK. sufficient,acceptable as comments over and over. ? If that works for you than fine but please stick to subject.

Saying that somehow a client wants less information is just silly and a way to justify not putting in the time for a quality report. These arguments have been used by Matrix report users way before this discussion ever started.

Home Inspector Pro has something called bookmarks and the fastest photo edit in the business so i am happy to include all that my clients want then some otherwise we could argue the internet has too much information also.LOL"

Bob I think you may have taken my last post differently than I intended. ? You said you needed extra photos to help you provide more material comments. ? I was unfamilar with the term so I went to the first website in your signature looking for a sample report to see if I could figure out what you meant. ? I found that you describe the material type of many components in a home. ? Not bad, just not something I think is useful if the component is funtioning correctly. ? You write your reports differently than I do. ? Neither good or bad, just different. ? I don't care what report software you use. ? It is a business decision. ? Its teriffic you like HIP. ? Gold star for you.

I don't make any mention of items if they are functional. ? I don't see a need. ? My state SOP requires I INSPECT a number of items and DESCRIBE a number of items. ? I have a list at the begining of each section stating I inspected the list of specific items. ? Then I describe the required items. ? Following is a list of defects. ? Then on to the next section. ? 

If you feel the sample report on your site is not a good representation of your work, then you might want to update your website with a better representation.

I don't think clients want lots of facts, I think they want pertinent information. ? I don't think describing as many components as possible, particuarly when they are functioning as intended, is a good use of my or the clients time. ? I believe they want a list of defects and an explanation how that defects effects the home. ? I don't want them to have to wade through any more report than is absolutely necessary. ? I try to spend my time and energy focusing on the defects, the reason they hired me. ? 

The internet does have too much information. ?  It is unverified and unreliable. ? But that is also its strength in allowing anyone to post anything they want. ? It opens the way for discussion without censure.

[Bob Elliott]

Bruce, I am not telling you or Cameron how to do your reports however it would be a big mistake to think clients are not interested in anything not directly pertaining to the sale negotiations.

Clients are very busy trying to go through the whole process and miss or forget much that may help them including Location and size of the furnace filters which by the way I remind them to check once a month.

One of the reviews I have published actually directly mentions that they were to busy during the buying process to notice till after they moved in just how detailed my report actually was and thought of my report as a Bible for the property.

Clients can go back and view the tips and comments to assist then in the future.
One thing you guys forget is that very few people have our in depth knowledge and what to you may be unneeded may come as a blessing to a client who works in an office and never learned how to do much past changing a light bulb.

P.S you seem to want a job as a webmaster so how much you gonna charge me?

Anyway have a good night and I enjoyed the debate.(promise not to review your site unless asked) that would be rude.Did notice you use a inferior software for your reports however so I can understand the lack of detail....lol

[Cameron Anderson]

Bob I think you may have taken my last post differently than I intended.

Best line in this whole string of posts. Hands down.



Bob, jokes are funny and you're right, this entire time I've really just been discussing the inadequacy of my Iphone.



Time to have a drink and re-read all this in disbelief.      Thanks for coming out folks, the next episode of Illinois Inspector Chat won't be for a few weeks as there is a mandatory period of mental rehabilitation necessary between shows.

[Bob Elliott]

Ha as always I say ha ha
....
Fun jousting as always.