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Author Topic: Sediment trap location w/ gas flex line  (Read 17620 times)
Joe Keresztury
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« on: July 01, 2011, 06:29:12 PM »

Here is a pic w/ comment at a recent new home move in inspection where I called out that the sediment trap / drip leg should be before flex line (low side).
Thoughts on this, please.
I had a debate w/ builders superintendent, who insisted that it should be right by unit, which as seen is on the high side of flex- not making sense to me since sediment, condensation, etc would settle better on low side of flex.


* Tjones 113.JPG (266.44 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 509 times.)
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2011, 06:43:26 PM »

Joe, I think as long as it is before the appliance it serves its purpose so the trap in either place would be fine. If a bit of sediment collects in the pipe before the flex line I don't think it won't do any harm.
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2011, 07:17:43 PM »

Yes but Burt my point is that before the flex, as it is lower will collect the most sediment, no?
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2011, 08:23:34 PM »

Before would be a more logical spot, that's for sure.
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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2011, 01:33:13 AM »

Joe... did you see my response on the 'other' MB?
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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2011, 01:00:40 PM »

Yes Jeff, you think it should be on the closer side, but my reasoning is that to the outer part of the flex is lower, thus better serving the purpose of the trap. Realistically either way is probably OK. I don't think that I'll call that out any more if it's either location. I'm just glad to see the drip leg. San Antonio area jurisdictions don't really enforce it. So the builders on my new construction inspects bring that up, that the city accepts it without. Well of course that doesn't make it right. After putting it in my report and/or discussing with my client that the manufacturer probably requires it and may void the warranty if not installed, the builder gets it put in at that point pretty quick. Cheesy
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2011, 06:36:29 PM »

Here is an emailed image I received from a fellow Nachi member, re-enforcing the issue of drip leg before flex.


* sediment trap.gif (53.09 KB, 447x351 - viewed 375 times.)
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2011, 06:48:44 PM »

I want to see the sediment leg between the shutoff valve and the appliance.  I think you are splitting hairs.  My personal preference would be just before the applicance to ensure that any condensation would fallout.  There are bigger fish to fry than than fighting over which end of the appliance connector the sediment left goes.  Move on.
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2011, 07:10:06 PM »

Bruce, who's fighting, who are you kidding??? This a discussion on a message board topic. That's what the message board forum is for. It's for everyones opinion, as you did give yourself. Your opinion is correct, for needing it right before the appliance. This topic is if- there is a flex before the appliance. My point is if there is a flex line instead of stiff line right before the appliance than gravity will apply (unless the law of gravity has changed) w/ the flex loop before the drip leg it will settle before the drip in the flex loop. Think about it. In some ways it's similar (but different) to needing a high loop drain at your dishwasher. It's called gravity, sediment will settle in the flex loop or before if drip leg is after flex. So, why not put drip leg before flex, which is not stiff/ straight, but looped up or down.? Huh
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2011, 07:31:35 PM »

Don't know how they plumb homes in your area but often the gas and associated mositure and debris has gone up and down several times before it gets to the appliance.  We have many HVAC and water heaters located in attics.  Based on your theory the last elbow before the gas went up to the attic would be the ideal location for a sediment leg/condensation trap.

Again, I just want to see the condensation/sediment trap before the appliance.  Nobody ever emptiies the trap/leg anyway that I have ever heard.  Who is going to pay an HVAC contractor or plumber $75 an hr to shutoff the gas to each appliance, remove the end cap off each condensation leg/sediment trap, replace the cap and then light the pilot light for each and every appliance.  I bet I could count the number of people in my entire state on one hand. 

I understand your point and understand the validity of the reasoning.  I still think that you are fighting the wrong battle.  Is there a sediment leg/condensation trap within less than 3 ft before the gas line enters the appliance?  If yes, then move on.  If not, then comment about the missing leg/trap.

Technically you may be absolutely correct.  What are the possible consequences of having the trap/leg at the other side of the appliance connector?  Is the appliance going to fail?  Are residents going to be injured or killed?  Are you likely to be sued for not calling it out?  The AHJ has final say so on the proper placement.  If they like it, I have other things I need to be worrying about.

Sorry if I upset you.
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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2011, 07:45:21 PM »

Bruce, you didn't upset me, you seem to be the one upset especially w/ the longest post on here, some of it not even applying to the original comment. Your talking about injured or killed, sued, etc. This is a discussion that doesn't need to go that far on this topic and no one but you are taking this simple discussion to that level.
Quit telling me I am fighting or fighting a battle. You say you have other things to worry about, well who's worried here? It's only a discussion.
You move on, as you keep saying.
You say the AHJ has final say on location of drip leg, What about the manufacturer- Oh yeah, they might void the warranty of WH if there is not proper install. If it's up to the AHJ, then what do your clients need you for???
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2011, 10:03:59 PM »

Yo Joe!
What are your thoughts on impurities in the NG/LP fuel passing by the smooth walled 'pre-' drip leg due to their lack of tangible weight and density, and then due to the turbulance created in the flexible "CSST" type piping, and no 'post-' drip leg, the impuritied get lodged in the metering valve orifice, preventing a complete seal upon shut-down? Would this scenario cause you to lose sleep, for fear of an unexpected fatal explosion?
Wink?  ? 
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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2011, 10:36:53 PM »

Jeff, no it wouldn't make me lose sleep, but let's fight about it buddy. LOL
 Grin Shocked Cool Tongue Roll Eyes
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« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2011, 03:19:35 PM »

I guess I am missing the boat on communication?

I got the impression that you did not agree with the AHJ about the location of the sediment leg and were looking for ammo to go back and stand your ground against the AHJ. ? Apparently I was wrong. ? 

When I inspect a house I look for things that are techncially wrong. ? Sometimes, items are technically wrong but over the next 10 years that an owner is likely to live in the home, there will be little or no impact to the house. ? I usually explain the technical reason it is wrong to my client and put it in the report but also help the client to understand that it should probably be a low priority when negoiating repairs with the seller. ? 

I saw this as potentially technically wrong but not worth worrying about. ? Sorry if my comments were not expressed well.
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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2011, 03:50:39 PM »

Bruce; you wrote: "Nobody ever empties the trap/leg anyway..."
I don't think there will ever be a need to empy the trap.  I think the amount of sediment will be so small that the length of the trap will do for the life of the appliance. 
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« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2011, 10:39:52 PM »

Good point Bert. Agreed.
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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2011, 03:07:09 PM »

 Hey Bruce, No, this didn't have to do w/ the AHJ, this was a new home pre move in inspection and the discussion was with the builders superintendent, as noted in original comment. When I went back for the re-inspection they had added missing drip legs to the lines at 2 furnaces I had called out but hadn't moved the leg from the close side of the flex on the water heater I called out as seen in pic. So my discussion w/ the superintendent partially convinced me that it should be on the inside of the flex, since that's what his plumber and HVAC guys told him. But I felt that as long as there was a drip leg, that was good enough. So I didn't report it at my reinspect and figured I wouldn't call it out anymore if the drip leg was after the flex in lieu of before. Even though I always felt it should be before and in most cases was. It is pretty insignificant as it is close to gas valve at either location. My concern for the client is that manufacturers may void their warranty if not per their requirements. As far as (LOL) the AHJ goes, I really don't care what they say. The city San Antonio changes inspectors more often than some of us (Jeff) Grin change underwear. Just kidding Jeffrey. We all know the city inspectors spend 5-10 minutes at a final building inspection and we spend hours. On a previous pre move in new home inspection I had reported that there was no drip leg at all- as required. The builder rep indicated in a email response for the report to the buyer and myself that the city (AHJ) didn't require/ enforce it, so they don't install drip legs. I responded in a email that the city inspector may not require it, but there is a good chance that the manufacturer does and not installing it may void my clients manufacturers warranty. No other response came, but sure enough at the re-inspection there was a drip leg installed. Cheesy 
Bert and Bruce hope things are going well
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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2011, 03:26:52 PM »

http://youtu.be/FLGxWPtgodoRoll Eyes


http://youtu.be/e1CfcEaF2sI (warning: language)  Grin
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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2011, 07:21:35 PM »

I didn't watch all of the second clip.  Just enough to know that it'll stir up enough sediment to fill any trap.
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« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2011, 08:41:11 PM »

I love Rodney. Him and Jeff would have been great together.
Rodney and Grumpy Cheesy
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« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2011, 02:52:47 PM »


Taken from Ashi Reporter
by
Bruce Barker, ASHI Member

Drips (also called drip legs and drip tees) and sediment traps are components in a
fuel gas system that help remove impurities from fuel gas. They look similar and are
installed in the same place, but they serve different functions. A drip helps remove
moisture from fuel gas, whereas a sediment trap helps remove particulate impurities
from fuel gas.
Both drips and sediment traps begin with a tee fitting into which a short-capped
pipe (about 3 inches long and called a nipple) is inserted and turned toward the
ground. The difference between these components is where the gas connector enters
the tee fitting. With a drip, the gas connector enters the tee fitting at a 90-degree
angle to the nipple and in line with the gas line entering the appliance. With a sediment
trap, the gas connector enters the tee fitting in line with the nipple and at a
90-degree angle to the gas line entering the appliance. The theory is that particulate
impurities will more easily fall into the nipple if the gas flow is in line with the nipple
and must change direction to enter the appliance.
IRC G2419.2 requires drips only if the gas supplier advises that wet gas exists. This
condition is rare in modern gas systems. IRC G2419.4 requires independent sediment
traps unless one is incorporated as part of the appliance. Exceptions are
gaslights, ranges, clothes dryers and outdoor grills.

Drip legs in gas piping are usually located at every vertical drops of the system.

Hope this helps. ? Smiley




* sediment trap.jpg (9.73 KB, 362x215 - viewed 493 times.)
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« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2011, 02:59:13 PM »

Minnesota seems to be a little different. Must be why Jeff is there.  Grin


The basic requirements. Sediment trap requirements are fairly consistent across the country, but Minnesota is a little more strict.  Minnesota requires the following for a sediment trap:
•Must be installed as close to the inlet of the equipment as practical
 •Must be installed ahead of all pounds-to-inches pressure regulators
 •Must be made of a tee fitting with a capped nipple, a minimum of 3 inches in length, in the bottom opening of the run of the tee
 •Provide a 90-degree change of direction of gas flow (the photo at right is an improper installation, because it does not provide this)
 •The cap shall be at an elevation lower than the tee fitting.
 
Minnesota requires sediment traps at all automatically controlled gas utilization equipment, but good luck getting a straight definition of what "automatically controlled" is.  I've been trying for the past four years, and I've received different answers from different authorities.  Some jurisdictions say that any appliance that automatically controls the flow of gas is 'automatically controlled', such as a clothes dryer or a range.  Other jurisdictions say that only appliances that turn on and off by themselves are automatically controlled, such as a furnace and water heater.  That's the definition I prefer to use.

http://www.trulia.com/blog/inspectorreuben/2010/09/sediment_traps
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« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2011, 04:47:46 PM »

Qoute from the Caveman- "Minnesota seems to be a little different. Must be why Jeff is there."
Agreed CheesyGrin

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url: san-antonio-texas-home-inspections.html

Title: 'Owner Builder' Consultant South Texas
Site: www.ownerbuilthome.info
Body: JWK Consulting, Owner Built Home Consultant in San Antonio, all South Texas areas
Keywds:Owner Built Custom Homes South Texas
url: south-central-texas-owner-builder-home.html

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Jeffrey R. Jonas
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« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2011, 08:39:09 PM »

Quote
Qoute from the Caveman- "Minnesota seems to be a little different. Must be why Jeff is there."
Agreed

Perhaps Minnesota is different because Jeff is here! Lips sealed
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Jeffrey R. Jonas
507.213.7468
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URL: www.owatonnahomeinspector.com
Title: Critical Eye Property Inspections
Description: Providing Residential Home and Commercial Building inspections in all of Southern Minnesota and Northern Iowa.
Keywords: Owatonna Waseca Mankato Faribault Rochester Minnesota
URL Path: owatonna-waseca-faribault-rochester-minnesota-home-inspector.html
Joe Keresztury
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« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2011, 08:42:04 PM »

Kinda goes hand in hand. Tongue Don't ya think? Shocked I am not shocked. Cheesy
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 08:43:53 PM by Joe Keresztury » Logged

Title: San Antonio Home Inspections
Site: www.jwkhomeinspections.com
Body: JWK Inspections, San Antonio Home Inspector, Performing Home Inspections in San Antonio & all surrounding areas.
Keywords: San Antonio Home Inspections, New Home Construction Inspections, New Braunfels, Schertz, Home Inspector
url: san-antonio-texas-home-inspections.html

Title: 'Owner Builder' Consultant South Texas
Site: www.ownerbuilthome.info
Body: JWK Consulting, Owner Built Home Consultant in San Antonio, all South Texas areas
Keywds:Owner Built Custom Homes South Texas
url: south-central-texas-owner-builder-home.html

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Marcel R. Cyr
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« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2011, 08:10:24 AM »

 Grin Wink
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Cyr Home & Commercial Property Inspections
body text: Home and commercial property inspections across Maine, Kennebec county and all of Central Maine.
Keywords: Central Maine Home Inspectors, home inspector, commercial inspections
Meta tags:Serving all of Central Maine and surrounding areas
URL: waterville-winslow-central-maine-home-inspections.html
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http://www.themainehomeinspector.com/
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