Home Inspector Pro Inspection Software Forum

Other than installing a sump pit with an automatic pump does anyone have any ideas where an older home does not have a floor drain to pipe the TPR to?

Dave - I see older homes all the time, many very historic, like early 1800's.  Often there is no floor drain.  Since the TPR seldom discharges, or when it does there is such little water, I have seen everything from brownie pans to hoses into buckets.  Neither really bothers me, so long as the buyer understands what is going on.  New codes around here are different - there must be a discharge location - but they don't grandfather.  What is your issue?  Is someone asking a question or trying to fix a problem?

Recently, it came up on a 1800's home. I had to point it out, and when asked why I had to explain the possibility if the TPR valve opened and did not close, of course the basement could flood. A sump would be very expensive, piping up-hill is not a good idea..............was hoping someone had an easy out to calm them down.

so out the wall is not possible , I take it?

Bob's idea is good, but you'd have to see the house to make suggestions.  I think maybe you put an image into their heads.  Sometimes I see something like that and mention it to the buyers with the caveat something like, "it doesn't look like anything like this has ever happened, and it is very unlikely that it would, but the worst case is..."  You know what I mean.  The image is there, but not prominent.  There are those little pumps put beside some basement AC units to pump out condensate - the ones I see are blue. They are small, connected to a 1/2" plastic tube, and can pump an indefinite distance.  That's probably the best solution, but I haven't seen the house.  I tell people to put a quarter cup of Clorox in them each year because they get goopy.  Now you need an electric source...

Yes, out the wall is possible but obviously would be uphill for the piping, (7'-8' basement wall) but that would still be better than flooded basement. I did not dwell on it, only mentioned why we point it out. While not very often, I have seen TPR valves open partially and not close completely. Yes I'm aware of the small condensate pumps, in fact theres one on the furnace right next to the HWH.     

One would have to see it , with other thoughts being drain pans , and blocks.
Uphill is a no no.

Dave, if you have pics, feel free to attach them to your post so others can check them out :)

Will do but but this one was pretty cut & dried........old house no floor drain for TPR piping for HWH. I have to note it on the report, cuz if I dont and in this case it would probably be written up by the next inspector as it was a pre-listing inspection. I dont like raising the flag, but dont feel like I got much choice. The best I can do is say something like, "it almost never sticks open and causes any problems, but you never know and it's my job to point it out to you"

Here's a good one though!!!!!!!
This same house had multiple wires under on lug on two different breakers, (the panel was full) and I noted it on the report. Also there was a 14awg on a 20amp breaker. When I went back this morning to retreive a radon monitor the remodel contractor replaced these two breakers with 50 amp breakers! 
Can you top that! 

Can't top it unless I had time to think about it - we've all seen some weird stuff.  At least with the 50 amps the wiring is covered.*  The breakers won't get hot...!  I had a new home the other day where the kitchen light switch turned the fridge on and off.  You have to try real hard to do that.  For all I know, the "electrician" was Paco, of "zapped electrician" fame.  I had in my notes that there appeared to be a short in the fridge, odd for a new appliance, but it can happen.  Then, later, I turned on the light switch and heard the fridge turn on.  Serendipity!
* Home inspector joke, which the County guys never seem to appreciate....

I laughed out loud on that one!
Ironically, this guy that did the 50amp trick was named Paco also! This same guy got up on the house and pulled the service wire tighter at the weatherhead to raise the serivce wires that were almost touching the roof of the detached garage he put up. I said, "man, did you go up there and work on that, dont you know you could have fried, you should have called the power company", he said yeh, I was careful.
I'm still one up on you!
   

Dees ees jhao wee duu een Neecaragwa, ok man dude?  Eet ok now, ok?  ¡Abrazos!

Now, if you could get him to do it in the pouring rain... well, at least he's up on the house, so he isn't grounded...*

*Another home inspector joke, which the County guys never seem to appreciate....

I just added a new narrative in my Electrical Section, warning that any deficiencies need to be evaluated by a qualified, licensed electrician. Hopfully that covers me now.
I had no clue this guy would crawl up on the roof and screw with this. I cant think of how I would have felt if he would have been hurt or worse. Unbelievable!

Dave - I lived in South America for 2 years.  Some of the things they do there are amazing.  They live with it.  Unfortunately, some of the things they do are really dangerous and not smart, to say the least.  They would heave a copper wire to hook over cables between light poles to steal power.  That bare wire would come into a bedroom window, was hot all the time, and they would rig it into some transformer in the house to use it for appliances or a jury-rigged outlet.  They had these small heaters for the shower, wired into one of those handled u-shaped devices that would lower into a sleeve to close the circuit and heat the water (old school).  It was exposed, right beside the shower and if water splashed on it, well, it splashed.  Children (!) used light-bulb sockets hanging from the ceiling to insert cables, taped in place, which they would connect directly to other things - a radio, fan, even a television.  An oven and a fridge would both be inserted, by the ends of improperly-sized, bare wires, into a 220 outlet on the wall, and used at the same time.  I saw this stuff all the time.  It is a way of life.  Your friend on the roof is just doing what he knows.  It is what it is.  My "zapped electrician" acquaintance was probably doing the same thing the next day, in the rain.  It is what it is.
      When I see odd electrical, it prints out as a very BOLD item on my report (the report on my website is a real inspection, bold items and all).  Bold, my report says, indicates a condition that is dangerous, unprofessional, expensive and/or can affect habitability.  There is a disclaimer which prints that says all BOLD items need to be checked by a qualified technician.
      I just this evening got an email from a client for whom I did an inspection last week.  She was not present, her mother was there.  At the inspection I noticed some weirdly replaced aluminum siding with a 1" hole in it.  There was what appeared to be an outline on the patio from a hot tub, but not recent.  In the panel box there was an unused hole from a previous, removed  breaker, and a large cable was still connected to the lugs.  The cable was cut, rolled up inside the box, and terminated with electrical tape.  This is a house, short sale, quickly put on the market to prevent foreclosure.  The seller spoke Spanish to his agent, not knowing that I was understanding.  He said some things he should not have said, about the hot tub and other things that were behind walls and such, saying that I would never find them.  The agent "translated" what was being said for the buyer's mother, explaining how the seller wanted everything in the house to be perfect for her daughter, and to please let him know what he could do for her.  Yes, he was lying, very smoothly, smile on his face.  I could have puked.  I deserve an Oscar for hot revealing how I wanted to remove his face...  My client was being totally set up.  This agent is worth his weight in navel lint, and I have been in touch with the local board about him.
     There is a much longer story, but this is a nub for your interest.  Bottom line - my client, a veterinarian in Massachusetts, emailed me to thank me profusely for my report.  The County is coming down on this house.  My client and myself are both protected by the BOLD on the report.  Unfortunately, I see houses like this, sold by people like this, three or four times a week.  It is a huge problem.  "Electricians" and "plumbers" and "HVAC specialists" and, and, and are everywhere and you and I have to protect ourselves. 
     It is what it is.

In 1970 I started out in the industry, (after a couple years with a very small volume builder in Iowa) as a framer here in Denver with a good sized family owned builder.
The company sold & closed about 3-5 homes a week. Ranches, tri-levels and two-stories with a max of about 2000 sq. ft.
Of the 5-8 crews consisting of 4-6 men per crew there was one only one guy, (who was on one of my crews), who was not the typical construction guy from the midwest or similar. He spoke English, was polite, considerate and loved America.
Now as you say,
It is was it is. 

Dave - Sorry, I've been gone from early to late with no energy left over for messaging and the like.  I understand and appreciate what you are saying.  The point of my verbose commentary was to applaud you for your foresight in changing the verbiage in your reporting.  To restate the obvious, I think there are substantial reasons for needing to do that!  You might even want to have a legal professional look at it.

Because of the changes to our society we, as home inspectors, are ever more exposed to liability for hidden things we might miss.  It threatens our businesses, livelihoods, and the lifestyles our families enjoy.  Our reporting software and agreements need wording to help reduce our various exposures.

It may not be the problem for you there that it is for me here, but I am seeing horrific stuff, unthinking and just plain scary work in houses I am inspecting for clients.  I am fed up, as I should be!  And the lack of professionalism in new construction generally perturbs me as an inspector.  So many do not treat others as they would wish to be treated themselves.  I fear that attitude is becoming more pervasive.  As they might say in rural Virginia, "Ahm afeered it ain't agonna git no better."

Bottom line - ANYTHING we can do to lessen or mitigate our exposure to hidden problems is only to our benefit as individuals and professionals.  Good job on the rewording!

Hey Dave!  Yesterday, on one of my inspections, the water heater TPR had no where to drain...  With a tear in my eye, I told my buyer (investor, six houses) of a home inspector friend in Colorado who ran across the same thing a couple of days ago.  He was impressed - this does not happen often.

I told him that in your case there was no easy solution.  At this house, a 30 year old pre-fab ranch plopped onto a poured concrete foundation, the improperly wired and plumbed water heater was beside a foundation wall through which a hole could be drilled and the TPR drained to a sump pump at the bottom of an exterior stair well.  The solution was a little difficult, but possible.

We looked at the sump pump.  It was plugged into a three-pronged interior extension cord, sharing that extension cord with a freezer and space heater on the screened back porch above.  The grounding prong was cut off of all three devices, well, so they could be plugged in.  The extension cord comes out of the bottom of the door.  It is plugged into an outlet on the wall.  The outlet (no cover) is hanging on the wall attached to Romex which goes into a hole leading into the house.  This Romex comes into the only bathroom, half way up the wall, leads down onto the floor, around behind the toilet and up the wall beside the sink.  It goes under the bottom of the cover plate on the GFI on the wall and pig-tailed into it.  The GFI was tripped (can't imagine why).

This GFI is doing yeoman's work.  When it is tripped so is everything in the bathroom - light, fan AND electric wall heater (!!!).  AND half the kitchen outlets, including the fridge and disposal.  AND the dining room outlets and light.  AND half the living room outlets.  AND both front bedrooms, outlets and ceiling fans.  AND another Romex coming out of the top of the cover plate, similarly pig-tailed, leading to a hole in the ceiling, and servicing a similar outlet box (no cover) in the attic, into which is plugged another interior extension cord.  Into this extension cord is plugged a hanging light bulb AND an attic fan.

This GFI is the equivalent of the Kennedy magic bullet!  I turned it back on thinking I would explode, but didn't...

On the sales contract are five male names, apparently heads of the various households living there.  In the house I counted 13 children's cribs and beds.  This does not mean that there are only 13 children living in the house.  Everyone shares this one little bathroom and the Yeoman GFI...

There is no point telling you about the other electrical, plumbing, appliance or HVAC issues.  YIKES!!!

But I am happy to report that we figured out how to discharge that TPR valve!

Oh, the stuff in the freezer was all moldy.  And in the fridge...  And the sump pump did not work.

I am NOT making this up - it was my most fun inspection all day!

Ahm afeered it ain't agonna git no better...

Wow. 13 cribs..... How many bedroom house was this (sharing one bathroom)?

Three officially, with "three" in the basement...  I see it all the time.

I thought that was more of a west coast issue.

¡No, no, no señor!

Happened in my last neighborhood.
Suddenly could not park in front anymore.
Investers buy a house then overcharge rent to the innigrants.
Ruins the neighborhood, with garage fires and drug deals springing up all over the place.
Aren't open borders great?

Yikes! I'm not seeing that here in Denver yet, but I'm sure its here. How long did it take you to write the report? How many sq. ft.?, what do you charge there. Sounds like your earning your $$$.

Yes, Bob, yummie, open borders!  There are sections of little Manassas VA I will not go.  I will get robbed or my truck damaged, and then if I go to defend myself I would be attacked by 15.  I would have no choice but to shoot somebody to protect myself, and, since I don't want to do that, I will not go there.  It is happening neighborhood by neighborhood out here.  The schools are overrun and dangerous and people are moving to get away from them.  Recently, Investor's Business Daily estimated, based on various financial statistics, that there are 50-60 million illegals here right now.   Geez, there are 52 million social security numbers being used illegally right now...  our county just made an arrest at a golf course and bagged 17 illegals.  They were all using the same social...!  If they all get amnesty, expect their relatives - 4, 5, 6 per illegal - and THEN imagine what will happen to the neighborhoods!!

Dave - I am still wiping the tear from my eye...!  I charge $1 per thou$and for an inspection, with a max of $500 (plus radon, thermal, etc).  If I don't cap it I will get pushed out of the upper market.  For foreclosures I am tacking on an extra $50 because of the extra time.  That report took about 1 hour to put together.  My usual report takes 15 - 20 minutes.  I have a lot of commentary pre-written and just highlight it to print at the end.  You have to be real specific on the commentary!  That little house, both first floor and basement together, could not be more than 1200 square feet.  When I said I am seeing "horrific stuff," I mean it!  We theeenk we be earning our money...

$1 per thousand what?
I just performed a New Construction Inspection here today, about 1500 sq.ft., I spent 4 1/2 hours at the home, and then 2 1/2 hours to create the report and upload it to the web. That's 7 hours so far and I charge $225. Thats aprox. $32 per hour and I'm not done yet time wise phone consulting etc. + fuel etc.     

David ,your prices are to low and you need to raise them.

He also needs to switch to Home Inspector Pro if it's taking 2.5 hours (cough cough, hehe). There was a nice post by Bob and then Bert here: http://www.nachi.org/forum/showthread.php?p=360061#post360061 where Bert talks about HIP cutting his report time in half.

Dave, I think Jay is saying he charges based on the homes selling price, $1 per thousand dollars. Do a $250,000 house would cost $250 for the inspection. Am I correct in that Jay?

Bob,
Where are you located? Do you post your pricing?
Look at mine, click here: http://www.denversbesthomeinspector.com
and click on my pricing. Problem is, I check when I can here, and when some inspector posts his pricing, I'm right in there........... but as usual many don't post their pricing. Some jacka$$'$ advertise $200 w/ free radon test, how do you compete with that? (I dont try) I will not match prices if asked. They are what they are.

Dave - If the house costs $385,000, I charge $385 for the inspection.  Or, in other words, $1 per thousand in value.  My minimum is $250 and max is $500.  For real expensive houses that maximum is a great price around here.  There are realtors here who specialize in the high-end stuff and they all know me.  Still, despite a good price, you have to render a great inspection - most veteran realtors are real savvy and know when you screw up and it gets around an office pretty quick.  For the amount of time your process takes you, Dave, it might sound like you are not charging enough...  but, your market really determines that price, not you necessarily.  Your clients do not appreciate the amount of time you spend, only the product you come up with in the end.

Dave - Postscript - I had another TPR today with no place to vent!

Dave , I am not trying to be judgemental , but pricing for you is a problem , because you post your prices and you notice what other guys are charging.

When they ask me what I charge I ask questions and talk about the property being inspected.

You need to have the knowledge that they called you.

What you think about is what you get.

Sometimes I book a client and realize I never told them my fee , so need to call back.

I would never publish my prices as each place is different, and there are factors other than sqare footage to concider.

I always say I am not the cheapest but I am the best.

If you feel you are the best ,you will be, and shouldn't you be compensated as such?

Hope this answers your question in the way you and I hoped.(now raise your prices, as only you have that control.)

Yes, your right...........nothing beats a thorough, user friendly report. I almost always get geniune high marks from the client, but I know they have no idea the time that is taken to provide it.

Try this on your next TPR piping situation, cap it! LOL!! ::)   

Bob,
 Very good points, and points well taken!
But the market really is slow right now, (picking up but still slow) so I think I'll wait and see how the summer goes.   

Your TPR topic was thought about and discussed, got changed into something else (pricing, illegals, etc.) and then got back to TPR.  Great job...!  So, what's the next topic?

No subject remains untouched.

Got a hot date tonight Bob?

Hi Everyone,

Here is a easy solution to the TPRV on a water heater in the basement area. It is also good for water heaters installed in hall closets on slab homes. Research this! I use them all the time on aplications where you can't get a overflow line to the exterior, drain or running the overflow line uphill.

Watts-Temperature-Gas-Shut-off-210